Interview with Doris Herzel - Industrial Marketing

Doris has over 20 years’ experience in marketing in an industrial environment. She is currently the Global Railway Marketing Manager at SKF. This interview busts common myths related to marketing. Why you never actually merely market a product, why you don’t target everyone, what a brand should be in reality, and why being tuned into the customers’ needs and wants is essential even in B2B. In the final section, Doris and Samantha discussion turns to the importance of education. Why educating yourself, training your colleagues and educating your customers should all be high on any marketer’s priority list. Watch the video here, or read the transcript below if you prefer.

Links:

SKF Railways page
Doris' LinkedIn Profile

 

 

Transcript:

Samantha Tonge: So hello, everyone. Welcome again. It's another expert interview with Labrakita Marketing. I'm Samantha, and today I'm speaking to someone I've known for a long time. We are going to speak to Doris. Doris, can you just do a quick introduction of who you are?

Doris Herzel: Well, yeah. Nice to be here, Samantha. So I'm the railway marketing manager in SKF. I've been in SKF for 20+ years, working with different industries. And as mentioned before, nowadays, I’m very much focused on one, very important industry. The railway is a very much growing, sustainable industry. So, yeah, let's talk a little bit about marketing in an industrial company.

Samantha: Yes. Yes. So something that I often see is that marketing, in those sorts of industries is often overlooked, or thought of as not important. I don't know how many times I was called the brochure department, working client-side in those industries. But it makes a huge difference. It isn't just consumer companies that marketing is so integral to, it is industrial companies too. And yeah, I guess your view would be the same?

Doris: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things I liked, when I started this job was that my manager told me: "Well, I want you to do marketing, don't think about brochures". And I was like: "Oh, yes, yes. Finally, somebody understands that marketing can do a lot more than just providing brochures". And when it comes to industrial companies, I mean, we are facing similar issues to B2C companies, because our customers also need to understand what's the difference.

And I mean, that's where I come in to give real support to my colleagues and the company, to really build up on: "How do we differentiate between all our competitors, and companies on the market, especially when it comes to technical communication?" I mean, a lot of times, there's a really particular lingo and it gets really confusing for the customers. If you are not an expert, I mean, how do you actually even understand what we are offering compared to what other companies are offering?

Samantha: Yes. And that's precisely why my tagline is: "Making your complex simple", because that's what you have to do in those industries. And even if the end-customer is really technical, they're bombarded with so many messages every day, you've got to get their attention before you start bombarding them with all the real technical details.

Doris: Yeah. And also, what is it that they actually need?

I mean, one thing is the part of: "Yeah, okay, we are a technical company. How much technique do you...? Or how much engineering do you actually need? Is it something that is important for your needs? Or where would we come in?" So, I'm talking now specifically about the company I'm working for. I mean, we are market leader in parts of the railway industry. And it's like, maybe in these parts we're also needed, while maybe in other parts, it's not a 100% necessary to be leaders. So there again: “Where do you focus on?” It's also a part that I find very interesting. So technical doesn’t always means the same things, and engineering is not the same thing. Focus is an important part, I would say, where marketing can very much help, because it helps understanding the customer.

It all comes from the customer. You know, engineers tend to forget in their thinking about the beauty of engineering, that… well, maybe the customer doesn't need the product so well-engineered.

Samantha: Yes. Yes, absolutely. It's all about understanding what the customer's actual needs, and wants, and desires are.

Doris: And what they are willing to pay for.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of people, maybe even some of the people watching this think of marketing as sort of marketing communications only. They think that is all that marketing is. But actually, it's, you know, the traditional four P's: product, price, place, promotion. And promotion is just one part of it. And it all should feed into it. Furthermore, as marketers, we need to… well, it's actually our job to understand the customer, to learn all about the customer and their needs. And therefore, what's actually important, in terms of... yeah, all those four P's, not just the promotion.

Doris: And I would go even one step further, Samantha. I would also bring in another P, which is the positioning. "What is it actually that we want to be seen as at our customers?” Coming back to: "Are we the right match for you?"

 "And how can we work on that?" For me as a marketeer, it's a really important topic to think about the positioning of us, as a brand. And for us, as in the different product lines.

Samantha: Yes, because you don't necessarily... Quite often when a product-person used to come to me, I'd say: "So who are you targeting? Who is this going to be useful to?" and they go: "Everyone." And that's not the case. You don't necessarily need or want every single customer and it's impossible anyway. You're not going to get 100% of the market. That's not going to happen. But: "Who do you fit best? And who do you want to fit best?" I guess it's a mix of those two.

Doris: Exactly. Again, it comes back to who's willing to pay for what you're doing. And then it has to match. It has to match of what you offer, and also how you're seen.

Samantha: Yes. Yes. And you don't want to get stuck. I know that a lot of industrial companies that overlook marketing end up in that sort of downward spiral. They're just competing on price, not brand. Because they think brand isn't important. And it really is. It makes a huge difference. They end up as a commodity, that's the risk of not picking where you want to be in the market.

Doris: It's true. And I mean, just coming back to and looking at positioning. I mean, if you are a technical leader, and you're positioned as that, people will also come to you with their problems and with their unique needs. While, if you're just considered as you said, the commodity, they just say: "Okay, I need 10 pieces."

Even though they might actually only need five, because they don't understand that they could do much better with something else.

Samantha: Yes. Yes. Spend maybe the same amount of money, but get more out of it.

Doris: Yeah, exactly. But that's, yeah. I find it very interesting to really look into these kinds of needs more in depth. And sometimes it's harder, though, as a marketeer to really understand: "What is it exactly that the customers are after?"

Again, I'm thinking about innovation versus what's on the market. Questions like: “Do we need to innovate or not? Where do we go to in the future?” So I think as an industrial marketer, you also have to have a vision of what's happening.

How will the needs develop? I mean, from a railway perspective, there's a lot about sustainability currently, when it comes to railway. Because railway as such is a very sustainable industry, right?

But then again, talking to customers, it's: “Yes”. They all want to be more sustainable. But it's really difficult to actually get the sign-off: "I put it right off, get that paid for."

So how much value does it create? Coming back to understanding the value behind certain trends and certain requirements. And how is the mix done? So I think these are all marketing topics that we as marketers need to help with, for example, within product development department, or in sales, even in customer service and some of the other departments, when you think about customer experience. So I keep on bringing new traps in, but I see that this is so much entangled. And as marketeers, we have a very important role to play.

Samantha: Oh, completely, I think that goes in two directions. Marketers need to be talking to and getting information from customer services, sales, maybe even finance department, etc., to get the full picture. And you also need to be working with those departments to make sure that they're getting the right messages across. They're talking to the right customers about the right products and the right aspects of those products.

Doris: Yeah. "Where do you put your time as a customer service?" It is actually as you said: "Do I have the right information, the right message that I can give to my customer rather quickly?" So I think the idea of marketing being that department or that kind of function that actually helps to reach the customer, with the right attitude, the right tools and the right messages, as you said, is correct.

And be very aligned. That's the next part. I mean, aligning between the different areas. It's not that easy. Talking about lingo as well, I mean, translating things into..., that is, simplifying. And I'm not saying that an engineer doesn't have to use the terms when they talk to an engineer. But then again, we're not all engineers. And our customers are not all engineers either.

Samantha: No, no. And even if one of the decision-makers is an engineer, quite often, it's not just up to them. So yeah.

Doris: Yes. One of the latest studies I saw suggested that, on average, it's about seven different functions included in a decision making. So having the same things prepared for the different functions, and one message translated into the different seven areas.

Samantha: Yes. Yeah. And like you say, it's understanding the different customers, and understanding the customer journey as a whole. Funnily enough, that's exactly what I've been looking at: my customer journey. I've been doing it for myself today.

I'm usually doing it for my clients, but I'm actually doing it for myself just now. But yeah, understanding that whole picture, and then thinking about what each type of customer is feeling and the needs they have at that particular point. That's when you start to get a better picture of what they need to know about, what is going to be of interest to them, and how you explain that, as you say, in the simplest way possible.

Doris: Yeah. And then to create an action. Because one thing is to understand, as you say, but the next thing is: how do you actually trigger an action?

With the information or the messages that you're having in the different stages, I mean, it's a kind of stage or state that they are in. And there's also a lot of studies about how to actually do that. I find that very interesting. So do you actually work with like, marketing psychology?

Samantha: Yes, I have. I mean, I've done plenty of studying. But I'm actually hoping to do a Master’s. There's a Master’s offered fairly local to me that's in International Marketing and Psychology, or Customer Psychology. And oh my word, I would love to do that! So I've got a relatively amateur understanding at the moment. I've read plenty of books on the combination of marketing and psychology and where it all comes in. And yes, it is so important to understand how..., or at least have a very basic understanding of psychology and the fact that we think we're very rational beings. So, and I think this is where sometimes technical-minded people wrongly think that: "give the customer technical information, and they will make the right decision, because it's an amazing product", but actually we make decisions based on emotions and gut feeling. And then we justify it afterwards with the facts.

Doris: Exactly, exactly. So yeah. I also find that to be a very interesting field exactly for the same reason, because that's what I hear as well. But again, if you understand what our reasons behind decisions are, the reasons why we choose certain things, and that enables you to effectively help customers to overcome hurdles, and things like that, it'll be really helpful. I mean, that's really important for industrial companies, sometimes even more than for consumer companies. Because in consumer, it's much more understood that you go on emotion, as you said, and people are very much: "Ah, you know, this is the new iPhone, so I will get it." Of course, when it comes to investments in industrial companies, it's so much more. We spoke about it just before, there, you have more people involved, and decisions are very much based on the opinion of bigger groups of people. So you have to prepare it better. Therefore, marketing really has a role to play to help in these preparations. I mean, it's nice to be Apple, but who is Apple compared to like us. Okay, we do wheel set bearings and axle boxes and things like that, and they are very important. But then again, why would you go with us as a company, compared to other companies? Help me to justify the decision by understanding what I want to work with, for example. My product, my train is the best train in the world, so maybe I want to work with the best company in the world. So really having the best train in the world. To make it very simple.

Samantha: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's the sort of thing that makes it quite hard to understand the customer. You can certainly ask the customer, why they buy from you. You can ask the customer, what's important about you, but they don't know. Not really. They think they know why they've chosen you, but if you dive deeper, you find out that that's not correct. Or at least it's not 100% correct. It might be part of the reason.

Doris: But there are many reasons. There's probably not just one reason, I expect.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. It's about understanding that. Especially if you want to place yourself in the top range, the highest quality, you've got to do a lot more than just say: "Our product is amazing." You've got to demonstrate that you know the customer, you know their needs, you understand what problems they face, and that you're the expert.

Doris: Exactly. And you know, what you also really need is the people proving it, that they are the experts. So this is another part of branding, as we talked about before, but it's also about the knowledge that you need to brand. And also the leadership. You cannot say you're the leader without proving yourself every day.

And that doesn't come automatically just because you have this great brand in B2B. So it's both. You have to have a good brand, no doubt about that. But it has to be really justified with the people that are associated with the brand.

I think the proximity between people driving the brand is much closer as well, in industrial companies.

Samantha: Yes, yes. There's, and I've probably brought this up on several videos now, but there's been research showing that companies that were, what they called brand-focused, which meant everyone knew what their brand proposition was and understood their place within that, such companies had profit margins twice that of industry standard. I mean... and I think it also explains what consumer companies generally get, especially the larger ones, that brand isn't just, you know, a logo, some pretty colours, all of this stuff. Brand is the core of what the company actually is and stands for, for the customer.

Samantha: So, if you get that right, a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about almost kind of slots into place.

Doris: Yeah, you're absolutely correct. I'm very fortunate that I'm working for an industry that is really important and can support a brand like ours in a really good way. Because it shows we are really good in what we're doing here. We have really strong experts, and we bring it out. So, as an industry, we are supporting as well as with the individuals. This is also something that I'm particularly working with the people in the industry: to see how we can work better together, how you can show your customers that you are the one they can count on, that they are eye-height to our customers, because who really buys from a brand? You buy from people, as you said before.

Samantha: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And therefore, they, those people need to represent the brand.

Doris: Yeah. Brand is a really interesting topic for me, as an industry marketer. Absolutely. And I mean, we talked before about the products. And the products are also coming back to that. They are important, but more as a vehicle.

So when you think about the ideas around: "What does this product actually do?" It brings performance, for example, or it brings a longer lifetime. So thinking about all the values that the product has. It doesn't really matter what product you're using, but what matters is, well, I actually need the best train. So it needs to run a certain time, I don't want to have any trouble, and it needs to be very cost-efficient. And this is what you're buying. So how do you market this then? Therefore, you don't market the product anymore, you actually market the value.

Samantha: Yeah. Which all sort of brings us back full circle to: "Who do you want to market to?" Because if you're demonstrating that by using your products, it will be the best train, you don't want to be aiming for a market that just goes for the absolute cheapest. "I don't care how well the train runs", using railways as an example, you target the companies that want the best trains.

Doris: Yeah, probably. I have a little bit of an advantage here, I have to admit, because it's a very highly safety-regulated company. So certain things you just can't get around to buy a little bit better.

Samantha: Oh okay. That's also a really important thing to understand. And I imagine that varies greatly from country to country.

Doris: Exactly. And that's the other part. I mean, I think that's something where industries, and the drivers of the industry also differ. I mean, it's really, really important to have safe trains. Because I mean, even if there's countries where safety is less regulated, it is still a very important that you have certain requirements, because you also have needs, again, coming back to what the customer needs.

If you have to run millions of people in a week, you know, you don't have a choice to say: "You know what, if this train doesn't run for 24 hours, we just take the next one." This is not, well, working, especially when you think about countries where you might think it can be cheaper. But then, if you don't run the train, everything breaks down, because sometimes, like in huge cities, it's the only way to transport. So, yes and no, but I mean, we are not the only company on the market. Coming back to the point of: "How can we really help them?" And this is, for example, where reliability is the huge topic.

You have to know that you can keep your schedules, and this is something you might be willing to pay for. While in other areas it's like: “You know what? The density is not as high.” Maybe it's the freight area where things are slower. So there might be other things that are of relevance, coming back to the target groups. I mean, there are different target groups, even in a specific market like railway. Because I mean, to start off with, you differentiate between freight and passenger.

You also understand that if I have a person on my train, it's a very different thing than having a package of giveaways. So very simple. If the giveaway sits for three days somewhere in the desert, it might melt or whatever. But it's very different. Coming back there are still needs, because you have logistical topics. If there's kind of agreed deadlines, where you have to deliver something, and then you have to pay charges, you might want to think about also reliability more than safety. So again, it differs. And then, I mean, we have the train manufacturer, that starts to build a train based usually on the requirements of a local operator. I mean, in the railway industry, a lot of times they are still governmentally connected, in many countries, at least.

So they have really clear requirements on things. The train builder has certain freedoms, and then maybe it doesn't have freedom. I mean, maybe even the operator says what kind of parts to use. So we also, I mean, as a market, I have to understand who's influencing what kind of decisions. Because I think we haven't really spoken about that yet.

Samantha: Yeah, that's true. We've mentioned that there's more than one person making the decision. But in B2B, sometimes, like you say, it's part of the chain. It's not just that we potentially have government requirements that are easy to find out about. But what's more difficult to find out about are things that the end user has an influence over. So in construction, for example, you might target the architects, and they specify something. What you don't realise down the line, is that perhaps a quantity surveyor is allowed to swap it out for something cheaper.

And it's the same thing for any B2B, with anything remotely complex. There could be other people influencing the decision that you need to understand.

Doris: Yes. So, I mean, we have a great role to play as marketers to really understand who we market to. And how do we do that? Because, as you mentioned, the architect might have very different kind of prerequisites and ideas in what he wants, and then of course, the user at the end, who's using the machine or the house, or whatever. So yeah, I mean, there is a lot of research and a lot of investigation that has to be done. And also, again, looking at what's happening in the future: What are the trends? How do they come together? So it's not a very easy task. I think it also has become much more complex with the web. People have the tendency to think that they now know even more than before, because they get more information. The question is: Do they actually know more? Or do they have more information that maybe confuses them?

Samantha: Yes, that's not quite the same thing. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I guess it's our job to help guide them through that online, on our own websites with the navigation and how we lay that out, and the calls to action we use to try to guide them through the customer journey we want to guide them through, that we know is useful for them.

And do you find...? Talking about trends and what's happening in the future, and I guess it's related to different people having different ideas of what's important, you know, amongst the influences for the decision. Do you think part of our role is education as well?

Doris: Very much so. In my organisation, I actually work very closely with our so-called Academy, because I think education is key. Especially in industries, that are not as easy, like engineering, I think it's a very, very important part to look at education. And I mean, a lot of companies do webinars these days. And even what you're doing here with me as well. I mean, it's part of your educational programme, I assume. It helps your customer understand certain points that might be underestimated or undervalued.

So I think it's good to really bring out the points and help customers, as well as train people inside the company. You know, I want to have an informed customer making a decision.

So, I mean, if they don't understand why they're choosing us, to a certain extent of course. I mean, you said it before, some of the subconscious parts are not clear. But then again, at least they should understand the difference. And that's only possible if you educate.

Samantha: Yes, I think that's before they make a decision as well as afterwards, and just generally educating the industry. Cars are always the example I use with this. But I think it's anything that's complex and bearing in mind, in B2B, often, especially if it's a big purchase, someone's job could potentially be on the line. It's about reassuring them that they've made the right decision; it's giving them the confidence. And maybe that's often after someone's bought a car, that's the point in time they look at all the data sheets and all the information, not before. And I think it's similar with what we do. We need to, you know, confirm to customers that they have made the right decision.

Doris: I fully agree. And I mean, that's also helping, when you feed them updates. And helping them understand that even if things change, they might have made a good decision, or they need to think about doing things and taking the next steps. Which leads us back to customer loyalty and customer retention actually. I think that's the key, to keep on interacting and educating.

Because interaction is just one thing. I mean, if you're shaking hands every half a year, that might be enough, if you are having a very close relationship to the salesperson or whatever. But then again, who is able to do that all the time? So I mean, when it comes to education, you can bring in other parties, and you can just bring in useful content, but it's the consistency of confirmation. Also, showing that you don't forget the customer.

I mean, how do you feel when you're buying something and you've, like, really put a lot of effort in it and then it's kind of like: "They don't care!"

And now I have a question, as your customer. And it takes a week until I get to hear anything. And then it's maybe not even the right thing. I would be much easier, if I have had interaction in between, if I had received content, if I had received updates. So yes, yes. I'm very... I'm a big fan.

Samantha: And besides making that customer more loyal and more likely to come back to you, they're also more likely to refer you. They're more likely to speak more positively of you and more likely to say: "Yes, you can do a case study, using us." So yeah, I think that's very beneficial in multiple ways.

Doris: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's interesting that you bring it up. Because it's also much cheaper to keep a customer than to keep on getting new customers. But it's definitely not as easy, I find. Sometimes it's a challenge to manage to keep customers engaged, because you also have to stay relevant.

And staying relevant, because... I mean, what happens a lot is: Okay, somebody's bought something. But not much is happening, especially in engineering companies. So what are the new things that you could talk about? And before sending something that is totally off, well how do you actually do it? I mean, it sounds easy, but it's actually also a challenge as a marketer to really provide that. So I think that's where you have to do a lot of planning and also understand what is related, and kind of coming back to education, educate that things are related. So not just staying in one area and keep on sending kind of the same stuff. After three times the customer says: "Okay, yeah. Ciao. I don't want to read that anymore." And they click the ‘Do not send any more updates here’ button, which you also don't want.

So it's really... It is a challenge.

Samantha: It is. And I think, in particular, for obvious reasons, things have changed. Well, things always change, but change has accelerated recently, after a certain pandemic. I think a lot of customers, a lot of companies especially, I feel, in sort of industrial, and technical sectors, are still sending out exactly the same messages. They haven't re-looked at their brand proposition, even though what's important to their customers might have changed.

And things are always moving. What's important to a customer today might be different tomorrow. You've always got to keep on top of that.

Doris: Yes, exactly. So that's a really good point to not keeping the outside-in perspective. Just because you sold something, it's still about the customer. Yeah, I think it's a really good point.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, the world never stands still.

Doris: Yeah, it all sounds so easy. I mean, I spent at least one to two hours a day doing research. I mean, this is part of a marketer's job to really understand what's happening. How are things changing? What are the big things? Yeah, I mean, this is something that takes a lot of time. But it's very beneficial, because then you can be relevant, and you also understand better how to feed your colleagues. I mean, we haven't really spoken about insights yet, how to create those. So this is also part of my job to find out, based on research: What is it that’s changing in the market? How can you talk to a customer? And I think that’s a part of this need to understand the industry, to a certain extent, or as you do, Samantha: ask the right questions and bring people together.

I mean, sometimes I see an article and I say: "Is this actually relevant?" So I then look for an expert to tell me: "Is this relevant?" And sometimes they say: "No. Not at all. It's not something... It's… yeah... Forget it." And sometimes they say: "Oh, this is really interesting. We didn't know this is happening."

So it's also something that brings me back to one of the topics we were talking about before. You need to have the different functions in your networking and bring people together to actually understand these things. And then you can create those insights that can go back to the customers. In content, and also in customer discussions.

Samantha: Yes, that reminds me of one thing that happened to me, client-side. There was a campaign, it's just been sent to us in the UK. We were just pushing it out. It was for aggregates in quarries, I think. And it fell flat. So I said: "Well, why? Let's speak to..." So I did some research, because it was my job to do some research on the industry. I looked into it, spoke to our sales guys who were directly talking to the customers, and they said: "They're not interested in reliability." I was like: "What? Why?" "Because they're too busy firefighting. They don't have enough man-hours to think about these things." My answer was: "Okay, but reliability will help them." "Yeah, but we need to change the conversation. Reliability is the secondary message. The first message is: Are you wasting man-hours?"

"If you are, we can help you." It's getting to the actual core need of the customer. It might be almost several times removed from the literal benefit that it gives you. It's sort of down the line, it'll help them with x. And x is important to them, not y.

Doris: Yeah, yes. I fully agree.

Samantha: And it's quite often, if you're talking to all these other functions, they have this information and they don't know that you don't know about it. That's why I love getting all these different functions in a room talking to each other. Because all this stuff comes out. And they really start to understand what's important to the customer. And it's so much easier for them in their individual roles to then communicate to customer: "Why us. Why our company. Why our products."

Doris: Yep. That's a nice sum-up, Samantha. So, yeah, I mean, I really liked it. I don't want to add too much more, because I think it's the perfect sum-up here.

Samantha: Brilliant. Perfect, thank you. Well, thank you so much for your time. I think we've got some really great information there. So hopefully, if you're in a technical industry, this has given you some food for thought. And hopefully we've convinced you that marketing's really important.

Doris: Well, Samantha, thank you for having me.

Samantha: Thank you so much. Bye everyone.

Doris: Bye bye.

If you need help with your B2B marketing contact me on 07791 521439 or email me at samantha@labrakita.co.uk

Interviewer: Samantha Tonge, Managing Director, Labrakita Marketing